thanks for this post!

ganyan din na eexperience ko basta pag tanghali hanggang somewhere 10PM. BAD YOUTUBE EXPERIENCE. after SOD lang gumaganda un experience ko, pati sa paggamit ng torrent apektado narin. im inclined to the possibility na may "capping" na si bayan. it's anyone's guess >.<

ps: di na ako magpopost ng results ko dito, alam ko na ang magiging outcome...baka mainis lang ako

EDIT: post ko nalang, walang p2p, torrent etc ang nkabukas when the test was taken....




mas mababa pa nga nakuhang kong result compared sa result ng TS.
final comment ko: gaganda lang talaga ang experience nyo pagka madaling araw....kaya pag umaga di na ako umaasa na magiging maganda net surfing experience ko.

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Here are my observations about the post:

1) General statements can be ruined by just one instance showing the nullity of given statements. The competitor that Xentar mentioned as indicated by my friends using their service, they do throttle some of the applications used on the web by their subscribers. Proof: They won't be coming over to my house to use my wifi on certain occasions plainly due to the fact that they have reached their quota.

2) Second, the site used to test is based in the US. Any geek would immediately discover that such distance and other inter network related factors can affect their tests. I still have to find an independent company in the Philippines that can provide us a decent tests on our ISPs. We have to note that the site is based in the US. Thus, other factors can affect the results. Factors that should be considered when conducting tests as such can contaminate the results. Contaminated results are not that conclusive as any researcher should know.

3) Classic case of network applied rules. If the applications mentioned were being throttled, then why are only a certain group of subscribers affected? Need I point the obvious.

In the end:

1) The tests are not conclusive. AS it already fails to meet the standards for a scientific approach on this. Though I do not expect you guys to know that for sure since you guys are subscribers, like me, but clearly not aware of what should be done. The tests only gives a glimpse but not conclusive. I believe I have explained my repercussions on these things already.
2) Second, not all are affected by this. Thus, it can still be explained by the fact that such occurrences can be due to routine maintenance that the ISP involved may have to undertake.
3) ISPs by law, can regulate certain applications that can affect the over all experience of their other customers. They are after all providing service to all their customers, not just one.
4) BayanDSL is not the ONLY ISP that has problems on YouTube and other sites. I just came back from Cavite the other week where the ISP of choice is their competitor. Even on a business package, I did experience problems that other subscribers are experiencing on the network of Bayan. So does that mean they too are throttling things? Name one ISP that is not inclined to do things that will help better the experience of ALL their customers? Good luck! As Xentar pointed out, there are seeming advantages to what is happening.

The reply I posted here is in any way not meant to down play the posts given. Rather, it is meant to shed light on the reality that DSL in our country still has a long way to go. If our country was as advanced as the US and other countries, then my post would have taken a different route and I would have supplied a different response.

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@TS and JPS:

Please read the rules. It was in the rules that anything related to the connection, the account number should be included. Please update your posts with your account numbers. Reasonable amount of time (within 7 days) shall be given for you guys to comply, else the thread will be closed.

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@ALL:

Account numbers will have to be posted when posting your results in this thread as this section of the Forum is ONLY FOR VALID BayanDSL subscribers. This will also give a chance for the Bayan Moderators to check if your accounts have problems. Rules for like creating your own thread if you want to complain about it and give it more focus still applies as well as having it reported to the technical support hot line prior to posting it here applies.

Please note that test results WITHOUT the corresponding account numbers will be automatically deleted.

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no result is accurate mag speedtest man or kahit ako.
there are certain factors na nakka-affect sa test.
and yes matagal na yang limiting issue nayan.
kahit sa forum ng TPC na discuss nayan
but as a subscriber wala na tau ma gagawa..
kahit minsan it is very irritating imagine nlang
1:20mins of video to buff parang it takes ages to finish..
ang ma sasabi ko lang just bear with it and adjust nlang.
or maglipat nlang ng ISP kung ayaw mo mag tyaga.

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+_+
ACCT NO: 327870912

That will require more than just contacting Bayan. The www.speedtest.net is not owned and operated by BayanDSL. Bayan is merely hosting one of its test servers in cooperation with www.speedtest.net. Thus, that will still have to be approved by the site owner which based in the US.

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Mikos, since you have taken a significant amount of time to craft your reply, let me reply to the points you raised:



1) General statements can be ruined by just one instance showing the nullity of given statements. The competitor that Xentar mentioned as indicated by my friends using their service, they do throttle some of the applications used on the web by their subscribers. Proof: They won't be coming over to my house to use my wifi on certain occasions plainly due to the fact that they have reached their quota.

What proof are you talking about? Any statement from your friend or any third-party individual with no authority on the matter doesn't qualify as proof. You haven't nullified (or proven/disproven) anything.

2) Second, the site used to test is based in the US. Any geek would immediately discover that such distance and other inter network related factors can affect their tests. I still have to find an independent company in the Philippines that can provide us a decent tests on our ISPs. We have to note that the site is based in the US. Thus, other factors can affect the results. Factors that should be considered when conducting tests as such can contaminate the results. Contaminated results are not that conclusive as any researcher should know.

The same country that YouTube and Google is. YouTube is a subsidiary of Google and M-LAB has Google as one of its founding members. The M-LAB test servers and network connectivity were provided by Google (link). Their test results are less likely to be contaminated and tampered with as opposed to the results of some independent company here in the Philippines that can easily be influenced and manipulated.

3) Classic case of network applied rules. If the applications mentioned were being throttled, then why are only a certain group of subscribers affected? Need I point the obvious.

You are wrongly assuming that ISPs can only control traffic generally for all their users. If ISPs can limit the connection speed 'per account' or 'group of accounts', then what is stopping them from traffic shaping data on a per user or group basis? ISPs have control on all data passing through their networks.

To quoute Wikipedia:
"To ISPs, mere protocol identification (classification) gives the intangible yet significant benefit of seeing what internet traffic is flowing through the network. From this they can see which subscribers are doing what on their network and can target services to the subscriber base they have attracted. However as time progresses, more and more protocols are using tunneling and encryption to defeat these methods. Also, many protocols are very difficult or impossible to detect. In such cases, per-client shaping is more effective. By establishing policies based on the IP or IP grouping of a client, end users cannot defeat shaping by disguising protocols or encrypting their traffic."

Wikipedia Source




In the end:

1) The tests are not conclusive. AS it already fails to meet the standards for a scientific approach on this. Though I do not expect you guys to know that for sure since you guys are subscribers, like me, but clearly not aware of what should be done. The tests only gives a glimpse but not conclusive. I believe I have explained my repercussions on these things already.

We can never use the scientific approach on this because ISPs are not willing to expose their methods. We all know that any inquiry and investigation related to this will be hindered by bureaucracy and red tape.

2) Second, not all are affected by this. Thus, it can still be explained by the fact that such occurrences can be due to routine maintenance that the ISP involved may have to undertake.

Does Bayan do routine maintenance on a certain protocol (FlashVideo / YouTube)? I am having this problem since January, and numerous emails and calls to tech support did nothing to improve the situation. I am not complaining about general slowdown of connection, because my downloads from certain file servers seem to be fine. But I am pissed with the fact that Bayan grossly limits the download speed on certain applications below my alloted/paid bandwidth.

3) ISPs by law, can regulate certain applications that can affect the over all experience of their other customers. They are after all providing service to all their customers, not just one.

Yes ISPs can regulate certain applications but only to an extent. They can block malicious data, worms and viruses from entering their network, but they are in no way allowed to throttle or limit speed below the subscribers' advertised plan/package speed and definitely not allowed to tamper and manipulate non-malicious incoming/outgoing data (which means, no lola techie ads injected into the webpage after I load a foreign website).

4) BayanDSL is not the ONLY ISP that has problems on YouTube and other sites. I just came back from Cavite the other week where the ISP of choice is their competitor. Even on a business package, I did experience problems that other subscribers are experiencing on the network of Bayan. So does that mean they too are throttling things?

Of course we cannot conclude based on your scenario because you intentionally did not elaborate. What was the connection speed from their local machine to their nearest BayanDSL server? If that is the source of the problem early on, then of course we cannot make any traffic throttling/shaping conclusions.

I tested my connection from my machine to your BayanDSL Quezon City server and the speed is what it should be. I believe I am in a better position to conclude, based on my Glasnost tests, that BayanDSL is throttling and shaping traffic.

Name one ISP that is not inclined to do things that will help better the experience of ALL their customers? Good luck! As Xentar pointed out, there are seeming advantages to what is happening.

Your previous statements were designed to downplay the fact that ISPs are engaged in such network management practices. Now you are confirming that they actually do and they are justified in doing it?

I don't get your "help better the experience of ALL their customers" statement. Aren't subscribers set to a certain bandwidth cap depending on their package? Mine is Plan 899, so when I want to view YouTube videos, can't I utilize at least 80% (give and take, I am aware of external factors) of my 768kbps bandwidth most of the time (again, I am also aware that BayanDSL has downtimes and I am not a narrow-minded customer) without affecting other users' experience? As VALID BayanDSL subscribers, aren't we legally entitled to get what we are paying for?




The reply I posted here is in any way not meant to down play the posts given. Rather, it is meant to shed light on the reality that DSL in our country still has a long way to go. If our country was as advanced as the US and other countries, then my post would have taken a different route and I would have supplied a different response.

Of course it is. The whole point of your reply is to downplay the posts. I don't see in any reply of yours that "sheds light on the reality that DSL in our country has a long way to go".





In closing:

As a VALID BayanDSL subscriber and faithfully paying customer, all I want is to be able to use the service UNRESTRICTED (within lawful bounds) and not more than my allowable bandwidth/plan/advertised package speed during normal and SOD time frames. I fairly pay on time, so I should also fairly receive the service I expect.

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BayanDSL Account #: 337324711

No, it's not YouTube's problem. I am actually experiencing this slowdown when viewing streaming FlashVideo's in general (I only used YouTube as my example because it is more convenient). I actually made sure of this when I rented in a PLDT MyDSL internet cafe four blocks from where I live. The speed performance when streaming Flash videos was fine, which is the same performance I had during the first three to four months of my BayanDSL subscription.

Also, I am in no way capable of "troubleshooting my youtube problem" because it is clearly not a client-side issue.

I would also like to add that I also used the Glasnost test on BitTorrent traffic, and sure enough, the test results indicated a red flag. But since I'm not really into using BitTorrent, I did not post these results here.

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BayanDSL Account #: 337324711

Care to explain what troubleshooting steps have you undertaken to help resolve the problem? The problem here is that you come up with a test, WITH JUST ONE TEST, and then conclusively say that there is throttling on video streaming etc. when in fact you have not:

1) Stated the parameters of your test (like what machine did you use, what time, etc, in others the conditions of your test, and its boundaries)
2) What you have done to help resolve the problem (did you use Video streaming accelerators, etc, traffic shapers like CfosSpeed, or even QoS)?
3) Have you indicated the response of the BayanDSL? What did they tell you in trying to resolve the problem?

Again, the bottomline: You were NOT ELABORATE enough. YouTube's site will have complains about accessing their site, regardless of what ISP is used to access them. This is the same with an ISP having customers complaining. I do experience problems, but I do not come to conclusions and declare them as final and start pointing fingers UNLESS I HAVE CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE that indeed such a general situation persist. Instead, I deal with the problem as I see it fit. And guess what, I get it fixed and resolved.

Just a curious question, with your Bit Torrent issue, did you use another tool to validate your findings there? Or you merely relied on the test provided by one tool you got on the web? I guess you need not answer a pretty obvious give away.

Sometimes, the solution to a problem lies not it the solution itself but rather in how the solution is drawn and located. It is in the process of how one resolves it and how one looks at the problem. Need I say more?

On the contrary, I am not saying that you do not have a problem. It is very clear that you do, and that a solution should be given to it. Rahter, I am merely advising you to exercise caution in drawing conclusions (before pointing any fingers) and to put things in their right perspective.

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MOD NTF, I doubt if the TS knows that. Most people who complain about technology do not really know the technology they are dealing with. In fact, if you noticed sa reply ko sa kanya, I am actually appalled that his claim is based on a single test without much systematic approach to it, much less another tool to verify the results. Much less get to know the different forms of technology pa kaya na available. I doubt if the TS is aware of a dedicated leased line like you mentioned here which are of course the higher end products available to business establishments like big corporations.

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@TS

Tama sinabi ni notroublefound, DSL is shared not 1:1 bandwidth ratio sa akin dito yong 1MBPS na business ko is 1:16 at sa Netvalue ko is 1:8 share yan.

Kung gusto mo Dedicated or Lease Line 40K a month gagastosin mo. pero free nayong Modem at Router.
Kami dito Conquested na linya, but undergoing na yon expansion. almost twice na ngayon ng expand dahil sa Leyte babilis at malaki yong demand ng Internet.

Sa area namin is 60 percent daw utilization pero sa Regional Conguested na. sa ngayon Regional Upgrade Sila.

Kung Rereclamo ako sa bayan, Mostly Ping Rate, at RTO, Pero hindi yong Bandwidth, alam kunaman Shared sila lahat. pero attainable naman yong naka Stated na bandwidth. Pero hindi sa Video Stream na sinasabi mo.

Torrents and video streaming can be affected by many things. Take for example what I cited in my previous post here. Prior to the QoS with my new router, I had issues with video streaming with my old router. Setting the QoS for me worked. It is not a guaranteed fix or solution though since it worked for me it may not for the others. If there is capping, then how come it does not happen to some subscribers, and how come a simple tweaking of the QoS fixes it (at least in my case).

By the way, I issued a directive on posting results in this thread, effectively putting this thread under strict moderation. Be sure to post your account number with the results you are about to post. Else, that will be deleted.

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If the post is in size 6 or big sized font, it means I am addressing you as a moderator. If the post is in the default size, it means I am Mikos the plain subscriber.

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